Curse

Lazarous · May 17, 2005, 04:13 AM // 04:13

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We can't just give the PvP only characters EVERYTHING and ALL the best skills/runes in the game right off the bat, because then the people who actually earned such items would feel entirely cheated, and with good reason, why SHOULD PvP only characters get such privaleges when everyone else needs to work for their elite skills and runes? Doesn't seem very fair if they're going to be competing in the arena. One did the work, the other didn't.

Ok, so let me get this straight. PvP characters, who have no interaction with the game world beyond the arenas, are suddenly made to have access to all skills. A player who's been doing the missions and exploring the world decides to try the arena for a bit with his character, sees a pvp character that has all the stuff they spent hours and hours of their life getting and feels 'cheated'.

Why?

If the player had enjoyed the process, then they have no reason to feel cheated. The time wasn't wasted for them because they recieved compensation for the time - a feeling of accomplishment if nothing else. That they aren't able to fight with their character effectively in an all-unlock pvp setting when they can go create a pvp character themselves is similarly not something to engender feeling cheated. If they want to experience pvp, they go create a character quickly and off to the arenas they go.

They only time a person would feel cheated when presented with a character that had access to the skills they spent so much time collecting was if they had not enjoyed the process itself. If they had not enjoyed the process, that means they were expecting a payout at the end; they were working for the end reward, not the time in between. If thats the case, they are pvp players since their is no endgame content after you unlock everything beyond pvp. Not only that, they're pvp players who a.don't admit this to themselves and b.want to have an unfair advantage in a fight.

All of these threads, all of these debates really come down to the fact that if you enjoy pve for its own merits, you don't care if there is a cheap unlock or free unlock of abilities for pvp. Since you can avail yourself of that same mechanic, you happily putter along in pve saving the world and don't worry about feeling cheated that some guy in the arena has an elite skill your pve character hasn't unlocked yet.

Laz

May 17, 2005, 04:22 AM // 04:22

These topics have been going on for far too long. Why are some of you just not reading posts and still fighting against arguments that arent even brought up to begin with? I would love to hear a well though out rational argument that defends the current system with no bias. So far in all the topics I've read I havent come across that.

Akshara · May 17, 2005, 04:30 AM // 04:30

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I fail to see how the fact that a topic is being discussed supports one of the viewpoints under discussion.

The subject keeps coming up, over and over. There is more effort placed into finding the skills one wants for a particular build, rather than practicing how to use those skills in actual gameplay. Unless one has prior alpha or beta experience, then the vast majority of PvP builds presented and discussed are just theoretical in nature, as one doesn't get access to the majority of skills until having gone through a considerable amount of PvE first.

Of all the threads I've seen on these forums, one of the rarest discussions that I come across are PvP specific strategies and team based techniques on the different types of games themselves. It's mostly questions about PvE, farming for items, skill searching and building of characters. Hopefully this will change over time. But for now, PvP itself doesn't seem to get discussed very much.

That's what I mean by this discussion itself supporting the idea that too much emphasis is going toward finding and unlocking skills/items, and not enough on the actual application of those skills/items themselves. If this entire discussion was moot, then we'd all be discussing how to effectively play PvP, rather than debating on the merits and definitions of grinding.

Buoyancy · May 17, 2005, 04:31 AM // 04:31

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Originally Posted by Lazarous

A player who's been doing the missions and exploring the world decides to try the arena for a bit with his character, sees a pvp character that has all the stuff they spent hours and hours of their life getting and feels 'cheated'.

Why?

Because the PVP player had those things handed to them at no cost while the PVM player put in effort to get them. Unless the PVP players are prevented from ever interacting with PVM players, or unless PVM characters get the same access as PVP chars during PVP matches, this would cause nothing but grief. The playing field has to be even, or it might as well not exist.

Lazarous · May 17, 2005, 04:34 AM // 04:34

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The playing field has to be even, or it might as well not exist.

Truer words have rarely been said.

Buoyancy · May 17, 2005, 04:34 AM // 04:34

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Originally Posted by Akshara

Of all the threads I've seen on these forums, one of the rarest discussions that I come across are PvP specific strategies and team based techniques on the different types of games themselves.

That's almost certainly because people who seriously PVP are bloody unlikely to give away their secrets.

May 17, 2005, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Good points Akshara. That is also one of the major reasons that people are so incredibly bad at playing PvP. Theres basics to making builds and there are basics to playing PvP. But if you continually beat up on noobs with the same crap skills then of course your ability to analyze things are going to be way off and you'll continue to be bad(see:Mesmers attempting to shutdown Warriors).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buoyancy

That's almost certainly because people who seriously PVP are bloody unlikely to give away their secrets.

Oh please. Myself,Ensign,Rex,Scaph and a host of other players tell people why we think things are bad and what we think makes for good stuff in the first place. Hell, this is THE most informative Guild Wars site on the net especially when it comes to actual discussion on skills and not VN board troll ranting about who's War/Mo build is better. One of the major points of Gurus is to educate people and get them off of the low-level PvP mode.

Akshara · May 17, 2005, 04:46 AM // 04:46

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Because the PVP player had those things handed to them at no cost

I wouldn't call +$50 cash, several weeks worth of researching into builds and gameplay dynamics, the hours spent designing team based builds with other players and guild members, and then the hours spent practicing and refining those strategies both online and offline as "no cost."

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The playing field has to be even, or it might as well not exist.

A dedicated PvP player using a pre-designed template build who spends 4 to 10 hours a week ingame is not on an even playing field with a PvE player who spends 10 to 40 hours a week unlocking every skill and item. The latter player has the natural advantage of experience due to the increased play time, so to then give that same player access to custom builds and upgraded items on top of their natural advantage only makes it more difficult for the more casual player to get into it and enjoy the game.

I don't understand why making the PvP aspect more accessible and enjoyable is threatening to so many "experienced" players. One would think they'd actually enjoy having more of a challenge. Very strange, indeed.

Buoyancy · May 17, 2005, 04:57 AM // 04:57

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Originally Posted by Akshara

I wouldn't call +$50 cash, several weeks worth of researching into builds and gameplay dynamics, the hours spent designing team based builds with other players and guild members, and then the hours spent practicing and refining those strategies both online and offline as "no cost."

All players spend the same amount of money on the game, making that hardly a valid point. As for time spent practicing for PVP, that also doesn't matter, since the PVM playershave to spend the same amount of time.

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I don't understand why making the PvP aspect more accessible and enjoyable is threatening to so many "experienced" players. One would think they'd actually enjoy having more of a challenge. Very strange, indeed.

The reason its threatening is because people do not want to have to switch away from their PVM characters to PVP. Give PVM characters the same options as PVP characters when PVPing and only when PVPing, and there would be no problem.

Lazarous · May 17, 2005, 05:02 AM // 05:02

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The reason its threatening is because people do not want to have to switch away from their PVM characters to PVP. Give PVM characters the same options as PVP characters when PVPing and only when PVPing, and there would be no problem.

So you're saying that, if a.net implemented an all-unlock feature for pvp chars, that if a pve character stepped into an arena they should be provided with a full kit and skills for just the arena.

Sounds good to me, anyone else think this is a good solution to the problem?

Laz

Akshara · May 17, 2005, 05:08 AM // 05:08

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The reason its threatening is because people do not want to have to switch away from their PVM characters to PVP. Give PVM characters the same options as PVP characters when PVPing and only when PVPing, and there would be no problem.

I don't think I've ever read anyone suggesting that PVE(M?) characters should be penalized in PvP. The whole point is to create a level playing field, where everyone in PvP has access to the same things, and then chooses the build they want to take ingame.

Anyway, round and round we go; where she stops, nobody knows...

Think I'll leave this one for the time being.

Eclair · May 17, 2005, 07:30 AM // 07:30

Just make PvP and PvE separate and unlock everything for PvP. I doubt PvE people would want to play against PvP characters that have everything unlocked for them. PvP characters who care about skill would only want to play against other PvP characters anyways, so there, everyone will be happy.

FolkLore · May 17, 2005, 07:36 AM // 07:36

I always knew that MMO pvps cannot be real 'skill'. As in the case of GW, i think they have an excuse by saying the 'skill' they refer to is the ingame 'skill', like 'Power Shot, Backfire, Firestorm,etc'. Lol

Then again, i play games for fun, and to avoid a game because it 'doesnt require skill' defeats the whole purpose of playing a game in the first place. If a game is more fun because it requires skill, than its good cause it helps with the primary reason why i play games, but if a game is fun even though its skilless, then avoiding it would make me like the countless 'loser geeks' out there.

Deagol · May 17, 2005, 07:51 AM // 07:51

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Originally Posted by Akshara

A dedicated PvP player using a pre-designed template build who spends 4 to 10 hours a week ingame is not on an even playing field with a PvE player who spends 10 to 40 hours a week unlocking every skill and item.

I agree. I'd expect the PvP'er to win big time. Or rather, a balanced team of such PvP'er would defeat a balanced team of such PvE'ers. Effective PvE combat strategies are build around the fact the the monsters are predictable, and are thus of little use in PvP. And the advantage of better access to skills and items are insignificant compared to the advantage of better strategies and tactics.

The outcome of a 1vs1 match would depend on who choose rock, scissor or paper, and would thus not be enlightening.

Gwynn · May 17, 2005, 08:42 AM // 08:42

imo... to capture all skills you want, you need to grind alot which i dont want to do ;/

Ilyusai · May 17, 2005, 10:04 AM // 10:04

In all of my MMORPG playing this game takes the least amount of time by far.

You could easily have a good group of friends in a guild complete all the missions while getting the majority of the skills you need for PvP in under 48-72 hours per character if you know what your doing.

Two to three playing days per maxed (level and the best PvP based spells) character and people are still bitching.

I've got a level 20 El/Mo (has the best El and Mo spells already) that is amassing skill points (35 of em now) for El/Me El/N conversion. A level 18 Me/N that is finishing up Sanctum Cay at 46 hours played and another level 10 R/W.

The game is two weeks old and I am close to having two characters done and finished as far as getting them PvP readied.

NiknudStunod · May 17, 2005, 10:40 AM // 10:40

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Originally Posted by Ilyusai

In all of my MMORPG playing this game takes the least amount of time by far.

You could easily have a good group of friends in a guild complete all the missions while getting the majority of the skills you need for PvP in under 48-72 hours per character if you know what your doing.

Two to three playing days per maxed (level and the best PvP based spells) character and people are still bitching.

I've got a level 20 El/Mo (has the best El and Mo spells already) that is amassing skill points (35 of em now) for El/Me El/N conversion. A level 18 Me/N that is finishing up Sanctum Cay at 46 hours played and another level 10 R/W.

The game is two weeks old and I close to having two characters done and finished.

The reason why there are people complaining is because during beta the game was toted as skill over time spent. If you want to compare this to something compare it to D2 meets pokemon but don't compare it to a mmorpg.

none · May 17, 2005, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ilyusai

In all of my MMORPG playing this game takes the least amount of time by far.

You could easily have a good group of friends in a guild complete all the missions while getting the majority of the skills you need for PvP in under 48-72 hours per character if you know what your doing.

Two to three playing days per maxed (level and the best PvP based spells) character and people are still bitching.

I've got a level 20 El/Mo (has the best El and Mo spells already) that is amassing skill points (35 of em now) for El/Me El/N conversion. A level 18 Me/N that is finishing up Sanctum Cay at 46 hours played and another level 10 R/W.

The game is two weeks old and I close to having two characters done and finished.

Totally agree! It took me about 60h to get to lvl 20 on my first character, and 40h on my second. Both times I did it either alone or in random groups. If you're doing things in a guild, you can go through that much faster, and still have lots of time for exploring. Provided the group you're in is skilled and tactical, you can finish the final missions in half a day and have access to all of the areas with important elite skills.

B@!T · May 17, 2005, 11:02 AM // 11:02

It is always lovely to read posts by people that think they will get their point across by trying to sound like they are more intelligent than everyone else... before you make comments about people using dictionaries, fix your own spelling and capitalization.

The update INCREASED drop rates of rares. "Increased drop rates for Uncommon and Rare items in Explorable Areas." http://www.guildwars.com/news/gameupdates.html

The game is not about skill, but strategy, and the two words are often interchanged when talking about gw.

Reducing the "grind" would be wrong, there is already so little time involved in getting lvl 20 chars with the appropriate skills. Also, "grind" has never, ever been used to describe a game like this - it is always farming repeatedly just to boost EXP. In this game, you never need to do that - do quests, then compete in Arenas. EXP and skills, no grind whatsoever.

If any changes were made to the game, I would like even more quests and areas - oh wait that is coming out in the next live update. GW rocks.

EDIT: Sorry if this came off as a little harsh, but I got a really condescending vibe from the first post, and that does not sit well with me. I just want to state my reasons for disagreeing and point out that I don't like the first post.

Madjik · May 17, 2005, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Areas? thier adding new areas next live update?

*looks at guildwars.com* I'll be darned. With all the neat new content you gotta wonder what there holding back for the first expansion

Kinda suprised to see this debate still raging, but then again ya gotta fight what you belive in. Beginning to wonder how a.net will deal with it.